1 00:00:11,690 --> 00:00:09,530 they've seen the aliens buzzing our 2 00:00:13,879 --> 00:00:11,700 missile silence and the UFO phenomena 3 00:00:16,189 --> 00:00:13,889 either we like it or not is already very 4 00:00:19,130 --> 00:00:16,199 much part of our reality very shiny 5 00:00:21,439 --> 00:00:19,140 concentric circles that caused a compass 6 00:00:22,029 --> 00:00:21,449 needle to spin and spin they are very 7 00:00:24,819 --> 00:00:22,039 large 8 00:00:29,829 --> 00:00:24,829 you know I found their stare extremely 9 00:00:32,619 --> 00:00:29,839 difficult to bear hi everyone I'm with 10 00:00:34,060 --> 00:00:32,629 Evan Bernstein from the skeptics guide 11 00:00:36,970 --> 00:00:34,070 to the universe how you doing Evan 12 00:00:39,250 --> 00:00:36,980 Martin I am fine how are you doing I am 13 00:00:42,369 --> 00:00:39,260 doing great I've had another podcast 14 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:42,379 with Seth Shostak so this is gonna be I 15 00:00:46,270 --> 00:00:43,489 think it's gonna be an interesting 16 00:00:48,579 --> 00:00:46,280 segment with us I want to talk about 17 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:48,589 your podcast which started a long time 18 00:00:51,670 --> 00:00:49,970 ago mm-hmm 19 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:51,680 I also want to talk about skepticism 20 00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:54,650 because I do think that there should be 21 00:01:01,509 --> 00:00:57,530 skepticism out there for a lot of things 22 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:01,519 or actually we learn that way you know 23 00:01:05,710 --> 00:01:03,290 it just depends on how far you take 24 00:01:09,490 --> 00:01:05,720 things but let's talk a little bit about 25 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:09,500 your podcast first of all sure it's 26 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:11,090 called the skeptics guide to the 27 00:01:16,569 --> 00:01:14,329 universe our tagline is your escape to 28 00:01:19,810 --> 00:01:16,579 reality and we've been producing the 29 00:01:23,859 --> 00:01:19,820 skeptics guide since May of 2005 we've 30 00:01:25,749 --> 00:01:23,869 got 390 or so episodes in the can and we 31 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:25,759 also ran for a little while a companion 32 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:29,210 podcast called SGU 5x5 5 minutes with 5 33 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:32,330 skeptics which has been you know 34 00:01:35,469 --> 00:01:34,250 critically acclaimed and we've had a 35 00:01:38,710 --> 00:01:35,479 great time doing it ever since 36 00:01:41,289 --> 00:01:38,720 I can't believe as far as the date goes 37 00:01:44,740 --> 00:01:41,299 2005 I I don't think I even heard of a 38 00:01:48,430 --> 00:01:44,750 podcast until like 2007 so how did you 39 00:01:51,370 --> 00:01:48,440 jump on so early we had a friend who 40 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:51,380 sort of informed us of what was going on 41 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:52,850 in the scene and thank goodness he did 42 00:01:57,430 --> 00:01:54,290 and he's actually you know not 43 00:01:59,530 --> 00:01:57,440 necessarily a skeptic I'd say um but in 44 00:02:01,960 --> 00:01:59,540 some things he is and what it was going 45 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:01,970 to be it's an interesting story because 46 00:02:07,570 --> 00:02:04,250 iTunes and podcasting all sort of 47 00:02:09,339 --> 00:02:07,580 started like late 2004 early 2005 is 48 00:02:13,089 --> 00:02:09,349 kind of when it really hit the scene and 49 00:02:16,259 --> 00:02:13,099 at the time myself and Steven novella 50 00:02:20,350 --> 00:02:16,269 and Bob novella and perry deangelis 51 00:02:23,050 --> 00:02:20,360 among others but the four of us were in 52 00:02:24,699 --> 00:02:23,060 a heated series of email exchanges with 53 00:02:27,820 --> 00:02:24,709 a lot of our friends having to do with 54 00:02:29,559 --> 00:02:27,830 of all things politics and we're emails 55 00:02:31,209 --> 00:02:29,569 are flying around faster than you know 56 00:02:32,709 --> 00:02:31,219 we can keep up with and count we're 57 00:02:33,070 --> 00:02:32,719 talking like dozens and dozens and 58 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:33,080 dozens 59 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:34,730 emails everyday and it kind of got to be 60 00:02:39,430 --> 00:02:36,530 monotonous one of our friends who were 61 00:02:40,810 --> 00:02:39,440 who is in on this email chain suggested 62 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:40,820 why don't we just get together one night 63 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:42,710 and sort of just record our thoughts and 64 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:44,210 at least you know maybe once a week we 65 00:02:48,190 --> 00:02:46,250 can kind of air it all out and get our 66 00:02:49,750 --> 00:02:48,200 you know discussions going in that way 67 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:49,760 and then we can go back and listen to it 68 00:02:54,850 --> 00:02:51,770 and you know it would just save a lot of 69 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:54,860 time it might be much more economical in 70 00:02:59,650 --> 00:02:57,770 the sense and that sort of was the spark 71 00:03:01,450 --> 00:02:59,660 and that gave us a great idea because we 72 00:03:02,890 --> 00:03:01,460 had been running an organization which 73 00:03:08,050 --> 00:03:02,900 is still running called the New England 74 00:03:11,410 --> 00:03:08,060 skeptical society ever since 1996 and we 75 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:11,420 were sort of looking for a way to get a 76 00:03:15,130 --> 00:03:13,310 wider exposure for our efforts in 77 00:03:16,660 --> 00:03:15,140 skepticism and just being a local group 78 00:03:19,090 --> 00:03:16,670 you know it you can do great stuff but 79 00:03:20,650 --> 00:03:19,100 it can only go so far so we realized hey 80 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:20,660 well this might be a good idea to 81 00:03:24,070 --> 00:03:22,250 instead of making it into a political 82 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:24,080 discussion we turn it into a skeptical 83 00:03:30,340 --> 00:03:26,810 program so the four of us got together 84 00:03:32,740 --> 00:03:30,350 we crafted a format and sat down at our 85 00:03:34,750 --> 00:03:32,750 computers and recorded it and that was 86 00:03:37,210 --> 00:03:34,760 it and the rest kind of took over from 87 00:03:39,550 --> 00:03:37,220 there well I actually listened to your 88 00:03:42,850 --> 00:03:39,560 podcast and you know being someone that 89 00:03:43,690 --> 00:03:42,860 is I guess you would call me a UFO 90 00:03:46,930 --> 00:03:43,700 enthusiast 91 00:03:50,350 --> 00:03:46,940 I still enjoy you know in agree with 92 00:03:52,330 --> 00:03:50,360 almost everything you guys say that's 93 00:03:53,979 --> 00:03:52,340 great that's that's better than quite a 94 00:03:55,630 --> 00:03:53,989 few people other people out there so 95 00:03:59,259 --> 00:03:55,640 that that's that's encouraging to hear 96 00:04:02,199 --> 00:03:59,269 but I also still believe that there is 97 00:04:05,890 --> 00:04:02,209 something going on with the UFO 98 00:04:08,979 --> 00:04:05,900 phenomenon that a lot of people just 99 00:04:11,979 --> 00:04:08,989 want to discount as you know crazy talk 100 00:04:13,810 --> 00:04:11,989 so since this shows about UFOs why don't 101 00:04:15,460 --> 00:04:13,820 we why don't we just get started right 102 00:04:17,620 --> 00:04:15,470 into it well first of all I want to ask 103 00:04:20,170 --> 00:04:17,630 you in your opinion what does it mean 104 00:04:23,740 --> 00:04:20,180 for you to be a skeptic what it means is 105 00:04:27,780 --> 00:04:23,750 that it comes down to how you evaluate 106 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:27,790 claims claims of any kind mundane claims 107 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:30,050 extraordinary claims and all sorts of 108 00:04:36,750 --> 00:04:33,410 claims in-between all claims deserve 109 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:36,760 sort of an equal treatment in regards to 110 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:42,050 plausibility to evidence available to to 111 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:44,810 being logically sound you know as far as 112 00:04:49,689 --> 00:04:47,330 following the rules of logic that are 113 00:04:51,309 --> 00:04:49,699 that are out there and sort of putting 114 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:51,319 all these things together to try to get 115 00:04:56,860 --> 00:04:54,310 a better sense of what is probably 116 00:04:58,929 --> 00:04:56,870 likely to be true versus what is 117 00:05:01,230 --> 00:04:58,939 probably likely to be untrue and you 118 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:01,240 know a lot of things fall on a spectrum 119 00:05:06,850 --> 00:05:04,250 people in science do not like to speak 120 00:05:08,860 --> 00:05:06,860 in terms of absolute right there is no 121 00:05:11,140 --> 00:05:08,870 absolute zero per se and there's no 122 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:11,150 absolute 100% of anything there's a 123 00:05:15,369 --> 00:05:13,550 spectrum in in between that range and 124 00:05:18,309 --> 00:05:15,379 skepticism sort of follows that pattern 125 00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:18,319 as well so how do you separate the 126 00:05:24,309 --> 00:05:22,550 things that are you know likely or to be 127 00:05:26,559 --> 00:05:24,319 true than those that are less likely to 128 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:26,569 be true and skepticisms we think is the 129 00:05:31,059 --> 00:05:28,849 primary tool by which people can come to 130 00:05:32,830 --> 00:05:31,069 good conclusions well let me just say 131 00:05:35,260 --> 00:05:32,840 this if everything is relative to your 132 00:05:38,170 --> 00:05:35,270 position then shouldn't you be as 133 00:05:40,570 --> 00:05:38,180 skeptical of your position as you are of 134 00:05:44,350 --> 00:05:40,580 anyone who thinks there is truth behind 135 00:05:48,089 --> 00:05:44,360 UFOs yes absolutely which is why things 136 00:05:50,559 --> 00:05:48,099 such as verification and replication and 137 00:05:52,390 --> 00:05:50,569 consensus these are all very important 138 00:05:55,719 --> 00:05:52,400 aspects of not only science but 139 00:05:58,480 --> 00:05:55,729 skepticism as well we do need to 140 00:06:02,439 --> 00:05:58,490 challenge our own beliefs sometimes we 141 00:06:04,510 --> 00:06:02,449 have built-in biases that inform us or 142 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:04,520 actually can send us down the wrong path 143 00:06:09,070 --> 00:06:07,490 of thinking in certain cases it we need 144 00:06:11,709 --> 00:06:09,080 you need systems of checks and balances 145 00:06:15,129 --> 00:06:11,719 and you need to bounce ideas off of 146 00:06:18,430 --> 00:06:15,139 other people especially experts in 147 00:06:21,390 --> 00:06:18,440 certain fields when for in my case you 148 00:06:23,709 --> 00:06:21,400 know I am NOT a scientist I rely on 149 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:23,719 gathering information from people who 150 00:06:29,350 --> 00:06:26,330 are real scientists active in the field 151 00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:29,360 of study who have their you know their 152 00:06:33,519 --> 00:06:31,310 their sleeves rolled up and they are in 153 00:06:35,260 --> 00:06:33,529 it every day they of their lives these 154 00:06:37,510 --> 00:06:35,270 are the kinds of experts that we do like 155 00:06:40,209 --> 00:06:37,520 to go to to gather some of our 156 00:06:42,189 --> 00:06:40,219 information that we need when we come to 157 00:06:43,540 --> 00:06:42,199 some of the conclusions that that we 158 00:06:45,490 --> 00:06:43,550 come to but yeah absolutely being 159 00:06:47,170 --> 00:06:45,500 sceptical of ourselves where we're we're 160 00:06:50,379 --> 00:06:47,180 human everybody's human and just because 161 00:06:52,570 --> 00:06:50,389 someone is a skeptic does not mean that 162 00:06:56,649 --> 00:06:52,580 that washes away all the foibles and 163 00:06:58,269 --> 00:06:56,659 problems of thought when it comes to 164 00:06:59,499 --> 00:06:58,279 being human you do have to check 165 00:07:01,120 --> 00:06:59,509 yourself mm-hmm 166 00:07:03,490 --> 00:07:01,130 one of the things in one of your shows 167 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:03,500 that I listened to that I totally agreed 168 00:07:09,999 --> 00:07:06,370 with you is when it came to the Denver 169 00:07:11,469 --> 00:07:10,009 UFO sighting recently this was in a show 170 00:07:13,510 --> 00:07:11,479 you did I don't know maybe three or four 171 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:13,520 weeks ago right you know the first 172 00:07:21,459 --> 00:07:17,810 thought okay it most likely is a bug but 173 00:07:23,170 --> 00:07:21,469 it really is up to in my opinion it's up 174 00:07:26,620 --> 00:07:23,180 to the person that's claiming it is a 175 00:07:28,659 --> 00:07:26,630 UFO to actually go the step further for 176 00:07:31,209 --> 00:07:28,669 instance I believe someone on your show 177 00:07:34,269 --> 00:07:31,219 mentioned that a triangulation of the 178 00:07:36,070 --> 00:07:34,279 members actually answer that and from 179 00:07:37,449 --> 00:07:36,080 what I understand someone was planning 180 00:07:40,990 --> 00:07:37,459 on doing that I don't know if it was 181 00:07:42,459 --> 00:07:41,000 ever done I think it's interesting you 182 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:42,469 actually take a look at these things and 183 00:07:49,389 --> 00:07:45,110 have oftentimes you do have an answer 184 00:07:54,059 --> 00:07:49,399 for them or at least a suggestion is 185 00:07:56,350 --> 00:07:54,069 what people can do to test and try to 186 00:08:00,189 --> 00:07:56,360 you know verify one way or the other 187 00:08:02,230 --> 00:08:00,199 what it might actually be going on it's 188 00:08:03,639 --> 00:08:02,240 a very important part of the process and 189 00:08:05,350 --> 00:08:03,649 what we see and what we had suggested 190 00:08:06,490 --> 00:08:05,360 and we weren't alone in suggesting that 191 00:08:09,790 --> 00:08:06,500 there were many other people out there 192 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:09,800 who sort of came to the same idea of a 193 00:08:14,439 --> 00:08:11,690 way that you could possibly test whether 194 00:08:18,070 --> 00:08:14,449 this you know was something unexplained 195 00:08:21,070 --> 00:08:18,080 or unidentified or you know a bug or 196 00:08:24,219 --> 00:08:21,080 some other creature and it's a very 197 00:08:25,839 --> 00:08:24,229 simple test and you're right I haven't 198 00:08:27,579 --> 00:08:25,849 heard that anybody's actually gone out 199 00:08:30,369 --> 00:08:27,589 there and actually performed the test of 200 00:08:33,610 --> 00:08:30,379 a triangulation between multiple cameras 201 00:08:35,709 --> 00:08:33,620 to try to get you know the either 202 00:08:37,569 --> 00:08:35,719 replicate the replicate the effect or 203 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:37,579 you know confirm one way or another what 204 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:39,169 what is actually going on if they are in 205 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:42,130 fact just bugs out there we've also 206 00:08:48,699 --> 00:08:46,490 tapped into our history in other similar 207 00:08:51,730 --> 00:08:48,709 situations in which people have caught 208 00:08:53,590 --> 00:08:51,740 things on camera that had the same sort 209 00:08:56,740 --> 00:08:53,600 of characteristics as the dent as the 210 00:08:59,019 --> 00:08:56,750 December 2012 Denver UFO footage that 211 00:09:02,889 --> 00:08:59,029 you know made its way went viral in its 212 00:09:04,329 --> 00:09:02,899 own right in which it had a lot of the 213 00:09:06,250 --> 00:09:04,339 same features a lot of the same 214 00:09:08,530 --> 00:09:06,260 commonalities the same sort of camera 215 00:09:10,540 --> 00:09:08,540 distance and hard to tell you know 216 00:09:13,030 --> 00:09:10,550 exactly what sort of ranges we're 217 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:13,040 talking about us scope and depth and 218 00:09:17,609 --> 00:09:13,490 back 219 00:09:20,169 --> 00:09:17,619 and all of that and you know there's a 220 00:09:23,859 --> 00:09:20,179 there's a tool and skepticism we like 221 00:09:25,780 --> 00:09:23,869 called Occam's razor and which means 222 00:09:27,639 --> 00:09:25,790 that when there are multiple or 223 00:09:31,989 --> 00:09:27,649 potentially multiple explanations for 224 00:09:35,139 --> 00:09:31,999 any given phenomenon almost always the 225 00:09:36,970 --> 00:09:35,149 simpler the simplest of the possible 226 00:09:39,429 --> 00:09:36,980 choices turns out to be the one that's 227 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:39,439 true so while you can't use it as a hard 228 00:09:44,079 --> 00:09:42,290 and fast rule it is a good tool of a 229 00:09:46,769 --> 00:09:44,089 good tool to sort of guide you in the 230 00:09:48,819 --> 00:09:46,779 right direction and you know saying that 231 00:09:50,290 --> 00:09:48,829 coming up with to the conclusion that 232 00:09:51,939 --> 00:09:50,300 these were bugs you know if you're gonna 233 00:09:54,639 --> 00:09:51,949 use Occam's razor that that's kind of 234 00:09:57,369 --> 00:09:54,649 where that leads you and ya know I'm 235 00:09:59,530 --> 00:09:57,379 glad you found that that you're sort of 236 00:10:03,819 --> 00:09:59,540 of the same opinion of us as as far as 237 00:10:05,949 --> 00:10:03,829 that Denver UFO a little bit yeah I do 238 00:10:09,309 --> 00:10:05,959 want to say you know the very best of 239 00:10:11,530 --> 00:10:09,319 the UFO cases a lot of times it comes up 240 00:10:13,569 --> 00:10:11,540 to the number you hear many times over 241 00:10:16,379 --> 00:10:13,579 five percent you know just cannot be 242 00:10:19,030 --> 00:10:16,389 explained with our current mainstream 243 00:10:21,460 --> 00:10:19,040 paradigm what would you say about those 244 00:10:23,799 --> 00:10:21,470 that five percent well okay so you got 245 00:10:25,030 --> 00:10:23,809 the five percent if you if we do want to 246 00:10:26,470 --> 00:10:25,040 you know characterize it like that 247 00:10:30,789 --> 00:10:26,480 that's fine we can we can use that 248 00:10:32,499 --> 00:10:30,799 number but but it's it it's sort of a 249 00:10:34,410 --> 00:10:32,509 leap that you have to take if you're 250 00:10:38,259 --> 00:10:34,420 going to say because something is 251 00:10:40,539 --> 00:10:38,269 unidentified or we can't scientifically 252 00:10:42,309 --> 00:10:40,549 with hard evidence put our fingers on 253 00:10:44,710 --> 00:10:42,319 what is actually going on here it's a 254 00:10:47,410 --> 00:10:44,720 leap to suggest that this might be 255 00:10:50,109 --> 00:10:47,420 something from some sort of craft or 256 00:10:52,780 --> 00:10:50,119 being from that is traveled you know who 257 00:10:56,439 --> 00:10:52,790 knows how far across the cosmos to come 258 00:10:59,319 --> 00:10:56,449 to earth to sort of do these dances and 259 00:11:01,989 --> 00:10:59,329 tricks and shows on the on camera 260 00:11:04,150 --> 00:11:01,999 footage that we pick up it it it takes 261 00:11:06,579 --> 00:11:04,160 more than that to be able to sort of 262 00:11:10,269 --> 00:11:06,589 draw that conclusion but I think people 263 00:11:12,730 --> 00:11:10,279 sort of have a predisposition to come to 264 00:11:14,289 --> 00:11:12,740 conclusions like that because we have 265 00:11:15,879 --> 00:11:14,299 such a great this is just part of being 266 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:15,889 human and again you know we are all 267 00:11:20,379 --> 00:11:18,290 human skeptics or just as human and 268 00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:20,389 anybody else and they're you know and 269 00:11:23,289 --> 00:11:22,160 well some people are skeptical with some 270 00:11:25,509 --> 00:11:23,299 things they find out they're not so 271 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:25,519 skeptical that others and what are the 272 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:27,290 point I'm trying to make here 273 00:11:34,689 --> 00:11:32,290 is that we like to sort of assign our 274 00:11:37,150 --> 00:11:34,699 our own personal thoughts our own 275 00:11:39,579 --> 00:11:37,160 personal desires you know what we want 276 00:11:42,639 --> 00:11:39,589 to be true into things that are 277 00:11:45,370 --> 00:11:42,649 inherently unknown we like to make order 278 00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:45,380 out of chaos in some way and a way for 279 00:11:50,079 --> 00:11:48,110 our for us to rationalize that you know 280 00:11:52,990 --> 00:11:50,089 in our brains is to sort of project 281 00:11:55,329 --> 00:11:53,000 something that is unknown but you know 282 00:11:58,499 --> 00:11:55,339 in that projection we fill it in with 283 00:12:03,870 --> 00:11:58,509 something that we find desirable and the 284 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:03,880 wanting the desire for there to be other 285 00:12:10,780 --> 00:12:07,690 beings out in the cosmos that are 286 00:12:14,740 --> 00:12:10,790 communicating or in contact with us here 287 00:12:17,290 --> 00:12:14,750 on earth is I think extremely desirable 288 00:12:20,110 --> 00:12:17,300 I think you find 99% of the people in 289 00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:20,120 the world I think would find that a very 290 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:22,910 very desirable position so when they 291 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:25,610 don't know what something is they have a 292 00:12:31,329 --> 00:12:28,490 disposition to sort of project that into 293 00:12:33,610 --> 00:12:31,339 the unknown and you you know in 294 00:12:35,769 --> 00:12:33,620 skepticism were taught that that's not 295 00:12:38,980 --> 00:12:35,779 the proper way to go about it you need 296 00:12:40,509 --> 00:12:38,990 more evidence than that and you have to 297 00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:40,519 you know if you don't have the evidence 298 00:12:44,710 --> 00:12:42,079 at hand or the technology is not 299 00:12:46,930 --> 00:12:44,720 available well you just kind of have to 300 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:46,940 live with it to a certain extent and 301 00:12:51,939 --> 00:12:49,610 hope that you technology comes along one 302 00:12:53,949 --> 00:12:51,949 day which can you know prove things one 303 00:12:55,870 --> 00:12:53,959 way or the other or that some more 304 00:12:57,309 --> 00:12:55,880 evidence becomes gathered in the future 305 00:12:59,319 --> 00:12:57,319 and we can compound that with the 306 00:13:01,120 --> 00:12:59,329 evidence we've already accumulated up to 307 00:13:03,579 --> 00:13:01,130 that time and come to a better 308 00:13:05,439 --> 00:13:03,589 conclusion as to what might possibly go 309 00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:05,449 on I think that's a more responsible way 310 00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:08,959 of dealing with the 5% question well 311 00:13:13,689 --> 00:13:11,120 what's your what's your opinion on dark 312 00:13:17,079 --> 00:13:13,699 matter yeah well okay I'm not a 313 00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:17,089 physicist my opinion on dark matter is 314 00:13:21,790 --> 00:13:19,430 that of the ultimate layman yeah dark 315 00:13:24,150 --> 00:13:21,800 matter is some is certainly one of the 316 00:13:27,420 --> 00:13:24,160 great mysteries of the cosmos that 317 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:27,430 cosmologists scientists are digging 318 00:13:32,829 --> 00:13:29,569 hearted trying to figure out exactly 319 00:13:34,990 --> 00:13:32,839 what might be going on there it's on 320 00:13:36,879 --> 00:13:35,000 it's unknown at the time exactly we 321 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:36,889 can't say for sure exactly what dark 322 00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:40,610 matter is we know that there 323 00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:42,800 - scientists are able to measure it and 324 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:45,110 that comprises I think from what I last 325 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:47,690 read it's it's it makes up about 23% of 326 00:13:52,329 --> 00:13:50,690 all the matter in the known universe how 327 00:13:54,220 --> 00:13:52,339 they exactly arrived at that I couldn't 328 00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:54,230 say but if your listeners wanted to just 329 00:13:57,850 --> 00:13:55,910 do some double-checking online for that 330 00:14:01,240 --> 00:13:57,860 I'm sure they can come up with some more 331 00:14:03,579 --> 00:14:01,250 and expert opinions that can explain how 332 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:03,589 that they how they've done the math to 333 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:07,370 come up with that number and there's a 334 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:10,730 lot of research currently going on with 335 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:14,690 that and the latest of which is has to 336 00:14:18,190 --> 00:14:16,610 do with and this was an article that was 337 00:14:20,530 --> 00:14:18,200 sent to us not too long ago which I 338 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:20,540 found fascinating is that scientists in 339 00:14:26,860 --> 00:14:22,730 the laboratory apparently have achieved 340 00:14:29,319 --> 00:14:26,870 a less than zero temperature in in this 341 00:14:32,290 --> 00:14:29,329 in the Kelvin scale which was thought to 342 00:14:34,449 --> 00:14:32,300 be scientifically impossible for the 343 00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:34,459 longest time but apparently not only 344 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:36,110 have they done it they've gotten it to 345 00:14:42,639 --> 00:14:39,310 about minus one billionth of a degree 346 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:42,649 Kelvin which I guess before was sort of 347 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:45,230 technically impossible but they've done 348 00:14:48,759 --> 00:14:46,910 experiments and apparently they've done 349 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:48,769 the replications and other people have 350 00:14:54,100 --> 00:14:51,110 confirmed the math that yes in a certain 351 00:14:56,829 --> 00:14:54,110 circumstances you can get below zero 352 00:14:58,870 --> 00:14:56,839 Kelvin which you know a few months ago 353 00:15:00,880 --> 00:14:58,880 was thought to be sort of you know maybe 354 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:00,890 one of the standards of physics that you 355 00:15:05,199 --> 00:15:03,410 couldn't do it well here we go we've now 356 00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:05,209 have broken sort of through another 357 00:15:10,569 --> 00:15:07,519 barrier and they're saying that this 358 00:15:12,579 --> 00:15:10,579 might actually tie in in some ways to a 359 00:15:17,710 --> 00:15:12,589 better understanding of what dark matter 360 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:17,720 is so science is such a wonderful 361 00:15:22,870 --> 00:15:20,570 wonderful tool in that regards and that 362 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:22,880 it always it really punctures the 363 00:15:28,030 --> 00:15:25,010 boundaries and pushes forth new 364 00:15:30,430 --> 00:15:28,040 frontiers and it allows us to add to our 365 00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:30,440 already accumulated set of knowledge 366 00:15:34,509 --> 00:15:32,510 that we've gotten and yeah we sometimes 367 00:15:37,780 --> 00:15:34,519 have to go back and sort of revise 368 00:15:39,519 --> 00:15:37,790 things a bit as to how we thought the 369 00:15:42,069 --> 00:15:39,529 universe you know was working under the 370 00:15:43,750 --> 00:15:42,079 information we had at the time but with 371 00:15:47,590 --> 00:15:43,760 new information requires a new 372 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:47,600 assessment of things one of the things 373 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:49,730 that comes to mind is you know we're out 374 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:52,610 there exploring and Kepler recently is 375 00:15:57,130 --> 00:15:53,810 coming up with a think 376 00:16:00,010 --> 00:15:57,140 maybe a hundred billion planets in our 377 00:16:03,310 --> 00:16:00,020 in our galaxy alone nevermind the 378 00:16:04,810 --> 00:16:03,320 universe mm-hmm our solar system is 379 00:16:07,780 --> 00:16:04,820 fairly young I'm sure you know that it's 380 00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:07,790 you know four billion compared to what 381 00:16:14,260 --> 00:16:11,510 could be much older solar systems out 382 00:16:18,850 --> 00:16:14,270 there sure we're out there exploring now 383 00:16:22,510 --> 00:16:18,860 we're out we're on Mars why would the 384 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:22,520 skeptic think that it's not possible or 385 00:16:28,210 --> 00:16:25,010 some beings from another-- say solar 386 00:16:30,130 --> 00:16:28,220 system may be visiting us yeah well I 387 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:30,140 wouldn't say not possible I would rather 388 00:16:35,650 --> 00:16:33,290 phrase that as highly improbable 389 00:16:37,810 --> 00:16:35,660 or high I wouldn't even call it 390 00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:37,820 implausible I'd say just the odds are 391 00:16:41,590 --> 00:16:39,800 against it because there's so much going 392 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:41,600 against it from what we understand of 393 00:16:47,380 --> 00:16:44,930 the physical universe we haven't found a 394 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:47,390 way yet to you know get through the 395 00:16:57,180 --> 00:16:50,810 whole speed of life limitation the the 396 00:17:00,520 --> 00:16:57,190 cosmic constant of the universe so to us 397 00:17:03,610 --> 00:17:00,530 to understand the universe and the 398 00:17:06,429 --> 00:17:03,620 cosmos based on those scales we're 399 00:17:11,140 --> 00:17:06,439 talking about having to travel some 400 00:17:14,679 --> 00:17:11,150 pretty far distances in very long 401 00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:14,689 amounts amounts of time in order for you 402 00:17:20,410 --> 00:17:18,380 know what would be aliens for lack of a 403 00:17:22,620 --> 00:17:20,420 better term to you know come and visit 404 00:17:25,569 --> 00:17:22,630 us now that doesn't mean it can't happen 405 00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:25,579 it just means that there are a lot of 406 00:17:31,180 --> 00:17:28,640 factors going against it having Happ 407 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:31,190 having so far happened or you know may 408 00:17:36,790 --> 00:17:33,890 may not actually happen anytime in the 409 00:17:38,919 --> 00:17:36,800 near future but you know again our 410 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:38,929 understanding of the cosmos is imperfect 411 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:41,210 as you know we've talked about just a 412 00:17:49,390 --> 00:17:47,210 little while ago and it would it would 413 00:17:52,750 --> 00:17:49,400 be you know such a tremendous thing I 414 00:17:57,340 --> 00:17:52,760 don't think skeptics say outright know 415 00:18:00,130 --> 00:17:57,350 that it's not possible but just that 416 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:00,140 it's highly improbable given what we 417 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:01,970 know about the universe and based on 418 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:03,770 based on a lot of the math that's done 419 00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:07,130 that's right and in my opinion 420 00:18:14,020 --> 00:18:11,360 that's what we know now but who's to say 421 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:14,030 that an advanced civilization possibly 422 00:18:19,060 --> 00:18:17,270 can you imagine our civilization if we 423 00:18:21,940 --> 00:18:19,070 could advance another even thousand 424 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:21,950 years from now oh my gosh I wish I were 425 00:18:28,390 --> 00:18:25,970 around for that and NASA is working on 426 00:18:30,610 --> 00:18:28,400 something called a warp bubble that they 427 00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:30,620 think that is gonna change everything as 428 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:33,289 far as travel have you heard anything 429 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:36,410 about that no no I I can't say I've 430 00:18:39,789 --> 00:18:38,090 really followed that at all I think I've 431 00:18:42,460 --> 00:18:39,799 heard it suggested a couple places I 432 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:42,470 haven't read any articles on it I would 433 00:18:47,799 --> 00:18:45,130 have you know I can just venture 434 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:47,809 by-the-by the description of it that it 435 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:50,570 is a means of you know like you said 436 00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:54,890 warping time and space into some sort of 437 00:18:59,590 --> 00:18:56,480 I don't know if there are they talking 438 00:19:01,870 --> 00:18:59,600 about wormholes at all in it's not in 439 00:19:04,779 --> 00:19:01,880 particular let me read here the answer 440 00:19:06,850 --> 00:19:04,789 lies precisely in those laws of physics 441 00:19:09,789 --> 00:19:06,860 dr. white and other physicists have 442 00:19:12,940 --> 00:19:09,799 found loopholes in some mathematical 443 00:19:15,370 --> 00:19:12,950 equations loopholes that indicate that 444 00:19:18,340 --> 00:19:15,380 warping the space-time fabric is indeed 445 00:19:21,909 --> 00:19:18,350 possible and later on it indicates 446 00:19:23,950 --> 00:19:21,919 possibly up to 10 times or more faster 447 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:23,960 than the speed of light we'll put this 448 00:19:28,810 --> 00:19:26,330 in the show notes a link to it and I 449 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:28,820 actually contacted someone at NASA the 450 00:19:34,419 --> 00:19:31,730 the the person that was involved in this 451 00:19:37,299 --> 00:19:34,429 and he said it's it's absolutely true 452 00:19:38,890 --> 00:19:37,309 what they're working on mm-hmm so did 453 00:19:40,690 --> 00:19:38,900 they mention and when you spoke to the 454 00:19:42,430 --> 00:19:40,700 person NASA sort of what the energy 455 00:19:44,590 --> 00:19:42,440 requirements would be for something like 456 00:19:46,270 --> 00:19:44,600 that when we talk because I know in the 457 00:19:48,850 --> 00:19:46,280 past on the show and we've talked about 458 00:19:51,220 --> 00:19:48,860 sort of futuristic technologies you know 459 00:19:53,740 --> 00:19:51,230 think places we would to the Star Trek 460 00:19:55,529 --> 00:19:53,750 ish sort of universe places you know we 461 00:19:58,060 --> 00:19:55,539 would eventually like to be able to go 462 00:20:00,760 --> 00:19:58,070 as far as what we have in our minds of 463 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:00,770 what cool future technologies what would 464 00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:03,289 hold for us if you were to apply them to 465 00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:04,640 what sort of what we know today and you 466 00:20:09,039 --> 00:20:07,190 take something like a transporter for 467 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:09,049 example for anyone who listens you know 468 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:10,610 know is familiar with Star Trek and 469 00:20:14,830 --> 00:20:12,110 transporting your molecules from one 470 00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:14,840 place to another I've heard it said that 471 00:20:21,340 --> 00:20:17,540 it would take about as much energy as 472 00:20:24,340 --> 00:20:21,350 perhaps the entire galaxy spits out 473 00:20:26,140 --> 00:20:24,350 overall over a course of time so how do 474 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:26,150 you go about harnessing that much ne and 475 00:20:30,279 --> 00:20:28,730 I wonder if yes if they're within 476 00:20:32,740 --> 00:20:30,289 regards to the warp bubble you come back 477 00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:32,750 to that is this something that requires 478 00:20:37,570 --> 00:20:35,600 such large amounts of energy that we 479 00:20:39,549 --> 00:20:37,580 could really that it's not in our near 480 00:20:41,159 --> 00:20:39,559 future to make this happen or if it is 481 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:41,169 something that they feel well maybe 482 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:43,610 nuclear technology somehow would play a 483 00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:46,250 role in it and they it could be feasible 484 00:20:50,409 --> 00:20:49,760 in you know within a few generations or 485 00:20:52,510 --> 00:20:50,419 something like that 486 00:20:54,159 --> 00:20:52,520 I mentioned something about negative 487 00:20:55,570 --> 00:20:54,169 energy mm-hmm 488 00:20:59,799 --> 00:20:55,580 I don't know if that's like antimatter 489 00:21:01,600 --> 00:20:59,809 or exactly what no I couldn't say you're 490 00:21:03,570 --> 00:21:01,610 right it is all interesting it's all 491 00:21:06,310 --> 00:21:03,580 fascinating stuff 492 00:21:09,279 --> 00:21:06,320 I'll just interject for a moment you 493 00:21:12,130 --> 00:21:09,289 know something that many skeptics are 494 00:21:13,539 --> 00:21:12,140 very fond of the work of Carl Sagan not 495 00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:13,549 only as a scientist but as a 496 00:21:20,260 --> 00:21:16,640 communicator of science and a purveyor 497 00:21:22,330 --> 00:21:20,270 of skepticism and critical thinking and 498 00:21:24,039 --> 00:21:22,340 he will he once wrote oh I'm sure he's 499 00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:24,049 written many times in several of his 500 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:26,270 books and given in interviews that he 501 00:21:31,570 --> 00:21:28,250 would love nothing for there's nothing 502 00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:31,580 more to be alien visitors ships visiting 503 00:21:36,909 --> 00:21:35,120 the earth and you know making either 504 00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:36,919 communications in some way with with 505 00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:39,559 beings or even the the phenomenon of 506 00:21:43,659 --> 00:21:41,960 what is known as alien abductions you 507 00:21:46,180 --> 00:21:43,669 know if that were to actually be 508 00:21:48,940 --> 00:21:46,190 occurring he would he would be delighted 509 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:48,950 actually if these sorts of things were 510 00:21:55,419 --> 00:21:51,890 actually happening but he says he is 511 00:21:57,789 --> 00:21:55,429 anchored by the hard evidence and the 512 00:22:00,789 --> 00:21:57,799 scientific evidence which dictates 513 00:22:03,250 --> 00:22:00,799 otherwise and in the history of UFO 514 00:22:05,529 --> 00:22:03,260 phenomenon which dates a very very long 515 00:22:09,850 --> 00:22:05,539 time he says there have always been 516 00:22:12,850 --> 00:22:09,860 stories anecdotes eyewitness accounts 517 00:22:14,830 --> 00:22:12,860 and explanation and and and you know 518 00:22:17,289 --> 00:22:14,840 people's descriptions of these sorts of 519 00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:17,299 things happening to them he said but 520 00:22:23,289 --> 00:22:20,720 never is there any tangible scientific 521 00:22:26,399 --> 00:22:23,299 evidence that you can attach to any of 522 00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:26,409 these claims he says not never not one 523 00:22:31,390 --> 00:22:29,510 piece in the entire history of the 524 00:22:33,850 --> 00:22:31,400 phenomenon which really spans a very 525 00:22:38,470 --> 00:22:33,860 long time even pre Roswell 526 00:22:43,019 --> 00:22:38,480 so and we as skeptics you know agree 527 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:43,029 with that opinion and that sort of 528 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:47,090 cautiousness and caution when it comes 529 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:49,730 to again want the difference between 530 00:22:56,710 --> 00:22:53,570 wanting things to be true yet at the 531 00:22:59,409 --> 00:22:56,720 same time being tethered to the evidence 532 00:23:02,590 --> 00:22:59,419 we have at hand which suggests otherwise 533 00:23:03,250 --> 00:23:02,600 I hope that makes sense I understand 534 00:23:05,830 --> 00:23:03,260 what you're saying 535 00:23:09,730 --> 00:23:05,840 you know there's there is supposed to be 536 00:23:13,539 --> 00:23:09,740 no I have never seen this documented but 537 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:13,549 somewhere between 3,500 and 5,000 trace 538 00:23:21,129 --> 00:23:18,110 landing cases in evidence landing cases 539 00:23:24,220 --> 00:23:21,139 where there was radiation or some type 540 00:23:27,070 --> 00:23:24,230 of burn areas and places like that 541 00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:27,080 there's also radar tapes of objects 542 00:23:32,590 --> 00:23:29,600 flying much faster than anything that 543 00:23:35,379 --> 00:23:32,600 our technology can offer as well as 544 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:35,389 making writing angled turns you know 545 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:38,570 something that a natural phenomenon cite 546 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:41,090 a fireball or something like that could 547 00:23:48,159 --> 00:23:43,970 never do have you ever looked into any 548 00:23:51,310 --> 00:23:48,169 of these things well as far as we go in 549 00:23:53,950 --> 00:23:51,320 our investigations we've not really 550 00:23:55,899 --> 00:23:53,960 delved personally into UFO 551 00:23:59,740 --> 00:23:55,909 investigations there are others out 552 00:24:01,210 --> 00:23:59,750 there who have backgrounds that allow 553 00:24:03,490 --> 00:24:01,220 them and afford them to be able to 554 00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:03,500 pursue those kinds of investigations I 555 00:24:09,159 --> 00:24:05,600 can't say that we've actually physically 556 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:09,169 done an investigation into into UFOs you 557 00:24:13,659 --> 00:24:10,850 know we've done ghosts and we've done 558 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:13,669 psychics and we've done other topics 559 00:24:16,539 --> 00:24:15,289 such as alternative medicine and those 560 00:24:18,610 --> 00:24:16,549 are the sorts of things that we have 561 00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:18,620 done but I know what you're talking 562 00:24:25,060 --> 00:24:20,960 about and I know what you're alluding to 563 00:24:27,129 --> 00:24:25,070 these are a lot of things that do are 564 00:24:29,230 --> 00:24:27,139 described in many of the accounts there 565 00:24:31,990 --> 00:24:29,240 are videotapes of them there are things 566 00:24:34,570 --> 00:24:32,000 that appear on radar screens right that 567 00:24:37,470 --> 00:24:34,580 people in the airforce and you know air 568 00:24:39,879 --> 00:24:37,480 traffic controllers pilots in the sky 569 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:39,889 astronauts in space and they've all 570 00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:43,970 claimed to see their see or experience 571 00:24:53,330 --> 00:24:47,760 something that they simply can't explain 572 00:24:55,580 --> 00:24:53,340 and you know as a skeptic I I also have 573 00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:55,590 to say you know we can't really offer an 574 00:25:01,010 --> 00:24:58,050 explanation for many first well some of 575 00:25:03,670 --> 00:25:01,020 these things right off right off the bat 576 00:25:08,420 --> 00:25:03,680 that you know some things are unknown 577 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:08,430 but just because you know something is 578 00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:12,090 unknown it doesn't again and it go back 579 00:25:17,690 --> 00:25:14,130 to saying it doesn't mean that that we 580 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:17,700 have the luxury to go ahead and say all 581 00:25:21,740 --> 00:25:19,770 right well then that's that's an alien 582 00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:21,750 or that that's that's something from 583 00:25:27,620 --> 00:25:24,720 another world that that that is causing 584 00:25:29,870 --> 00:25:27,630 this to happen it's it's too far a step 585 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:29,880 to be able to take and we need more 586 00:25:33,650 --> 00:25:31,770 evidence we need corroborating evidence 587 00:25:35,420 --> 00:25:33,660 we need physical evidence we need 588 00:25:39,710 --> 00:25:35,430 scientific evidence that follows the 589 00:25:41,630 --> 00:25:39,720 rules of logic and stands up to 590 00:25:44,660 --> 00:25:41,640 scientific scrutiny as Carl Sagan used 591 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:44,670 to say again I don't mean to quote him 592 00:25:50,030 --> 00:25:47,970 so so often but yeah he's sort of one of 593 00:25:52,850 --> 00:25:50,040 our go-to guys in this extraordinary 594 00:25:55,490 --> 00:25:52,860 claims do require more extraordinary 595 00:25:58,670 --> 00:25:55,500 evidence and that's what we're hoping 596 00:26:01,910 --> 00:25:58,680 that one day we'll come to the to the 597 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:01,920 forefront Carl Sagan also said that when 598 00:26:07,940 --> 00:26:05,910 he believed that if there were aliens 599 00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:07,950 and there were ships visiting the earth 600 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:10,110 it's not going to be the kind of thing 601 00:26:13,850 --> 00:26:12,090 that gets picked up on a security camera 602 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:13,860 somewhere someone happens to be shooting 603 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:15,570 something off in the distance or a blip 604 00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:17,490 on a radar he said it's gonna you're 605 00:26:21,770 --> 00:26:19,200 gonna know it like the movie 606 00:26:24,140 --> 00:26:21,780 Independence Day right with these 15 607 00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:24,150 mile wide ships that park themselves 608 00:26:28,610 --> 00:26:26,640 over all of the major cities it's it 609 00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:28,620 would be more of probably more of an 610 00:26:33,410 --> 00:26:30,870 event like that it hopefully it would be 611 00:26:35,110 --> 00:26:33,420 as benign as that and if you know would 612 00:26:37,910 --> 00:26:35,120 be unfortunate with something much or 613 00:26:39,770 --> 00:26:37,920 much more worse than that you know an 614 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:39,780 invasive sort of species coming at us 615 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:43,530 but he regardless he believed that you 616 00:26:49,340 --> 00:26:46,250 know we'll we'll know without a doubt 617 00:26:51,140 --> 00:26:49,350 that something something extraordinary 618 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:51,150 has happened there's not going to be 619 00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:54,570 whispers suggestions hints anecdotes and 620 00:26:59,270 --> 00:26:55,950 these sorts of things it's going to be 621 00:27:01,070 --> 00:26:59,280 ironclad no doubt about it everybody in 622 00:27:03,410 --> 00:27:01,080 the world will be able to see 623 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:03,420 and experience that with no filtration 624 00:27:08,270 --> 00:27:05,970 whatsoever that will be the moment and 625 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:08,280 you know that would be an extremely 626 00:27:13,970 --> 00:27:10,290 exciting thing if that ever happened I 627 00:27:16,910 --> 00:27:13,980 agree I'm a fan of Carl Sagan's myself 628 00:27:19,810 --> 00:27:16,920 basically one of his phrases if I can 629 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:19,820 paraphrase and remember correctly 630 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:22,050 absence of evidence does not mean 631 00:27:25,190 --> 00:27:24,210 evidence of absence mm-hmm yes 632 00:27:26,630 --> 00:27:25,200 absolutely 633 00:27:28,940 --> 00:27:26,640 I don't know if he borrowed that from 634 00:27:30,650 --> 00:27:28,950 somebody else I've heard it mentioned by 635 00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:30,660 many people and written down in several 636 00:27:36,380 --> 00:27:34,110 locations but sure you know if if anyone 637 00:27:39,530 --> 00:27:36,390 made that pop that saying popular it was 638 00:27:41,210 --> 00:27:39,540 probably Carl you know that is a good 639 00:27:44,090 --> 00:27:41,220 thing to keep in mind the source of all 640 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:44,100 the little rules of skepticism that over 641 00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:47,850 time as people you know get a sense for 642 00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:49,710 what skepticism is and sort of practice 643 00:27:54,020 --> 00:27:51,120 it more in their in their day to day 644 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:54,030 lives they'll they come to adapt these 645 00:28:03,710 --> 00:27:58,010 sorts of little rules of evidence and 646 00:28:05,180 --> 00:28:03,720 and logic that help like I said help 647 00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:05,190 them make up help them make up their 648 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:07,200 minds as far as what is actually going 649 00:28:13,070 --> 00:28:10,530 on versus what is not going on one of 650 00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:13,080 the things that I find is one of the 651 00:28:17,870 --> 00:28:15,360 sightings I think is very interesting is 652 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:17,880 and I don't know if your show ever 653 00:28:22,820 --> 00:28:20,370 looked into the Phoenix lights I'm 654 00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:22,830 familiar with the story was 1997 the 655 00:28:29,780 --> 00:28:27,120 Phoenix yeah you know there was indeed 656 00:28:33,020 --> 00:28:29,790 flares shot off that night mm-hmm 657 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:33,030 there was also thousands of people that 658 00:28:37,850 --> 00:28:36,090 saw some type of craft up to a mile wide 659 00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:37,860 mm-hmm 660 00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:40,080 you know including the governor of 661 00:28:44,930 --> 00:28:42,480 Arizona himself who later I email with 662 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:44,940 it 10 years I believe about 10 years 663 00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:47,250 later how are you all so familiar with 664 00:28:52,850 --> 00:28:51,390 the cameto report not that report 665 00:28:55,700 --> 00:28:52,860 specifically go ahead and paraphrase 666 00:28:58,460 --> 00:28:55,710 well it's it's a French report that was 667 00:29:01,730 --> 00:28:58,470 done and basically going back to Occam's 668 00:29:03,860 --> 00:29:01,740 razor one of the hypotheses so the 669 00:29:08,380 --> 00:29:03,870 strongest hypotheses was that the very 670 00:29:10,730 --> 00:29:08,390 few percentage of sightings that were 671 00:29:13,670 --> 00:29:10,740 unexplainable were most likely 672 00:29:14,779 --> 00:29:13,680 extraterrestrial that was what the 673 00:29:19,129 --> 00:29:14,789 French came out with 674 00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:19,139 now before I just say that in you know 675 00:29:25,219 --> 00:29:22,049 fall completely on top of that and use 676 00:29:27,139 --> 00:29:25,229 them whatever I want to say that that is 677 00:29:29,719 --> 00:29:27,149 a mistake that I think a lot of people 678 00:29:31,719 --> 00:29:29,729 make with the UFO argument is to say 679 00:29:34,459 --> 00:29:31,729 that these are definitely 680 00:29:37,369 --> 00:29:34,469 extraterrestrial I would like to say my 681 00:29:38,839 --> 00:29:37,379 feeling is I don't know but there's 682 00:29:42,349 --> 00:29:38,849 something there's something there that 683 00:29:45,319 --> 00:29:42,359 has happened yes it is happening no 684 00:29:47,389 --> 00:29:45,329 doubt I definitely something is you're 685 00:29:49,519 --> 00:29:47,399 right something is happening there's no 686 00:29:51,319 --> 00:29:49,529 doubt about that there's not I really 687 00:29:52,939 --> 00:29:51,329 don't think there's mass hallucinations 688 00:29:55,399 --> 00:29:52,949 going on especially in regards to 689 00:29:57,169 --> 00:29:55,409 something like the Phoenix lights in 690 00:29:58,549 --> 00:29:57,179 which there have been you know is tons 691 00:30:00,139 --> 00:29:58,559 of video accounts of it you know 692 00:30:02,239 --> 00:30:00,149 thousands of people if you know have 693 00:30:05,899 --> 00:30:02,249 come forward and you know explained what 694 00:30:07,399 --> 00:30:05,909 they saw that night and yeah you're but 695 00:30:08,839 --> 00:30:07,409 you're but you're right you're right and 696 00:30:11,299 --> 00:30:08,849 showing the proper amount of skepticism 697 00:30:14,239 --> 00:30:11,309 there's that you know with in regards to 698 00:30:17,059 --> 00:30:14,249 that French report that it was premature 699 00:30:18,909 --> 00:30:17,069 of them perhaps to go ahead and state 700 00:30:21,229 --> 00:30:18,919 something as such a hard fact without 701 00:30:23,509 --> 00:30:21,239 having more evidence at their disposal 702 00:30:25,399 --> 00:30:23,519 to back it up it was basically the 703 00:30:28,969 --> 00:30:25,409 conclusion that they came up with after 704 00:30:31,609 --> 00:30:28,979 a very hard study and it's a very 705 00:30:34,099 --> 00:30:31,619 interesting case and it is translated in 706 00:30:37,219 --> 00:30:34,109 English I want to go back I'm gonna 707 00:30:39,859 --> 00:30:37,229 start in just a few minutes with I have 708 00:30:43,729 --> 00:30:39,869 it looks like about five or so questions 709 00:30:45,409 --> 00:30:43,739 from listeners sure but before I get to 710 00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:45,419 that I want to talk about the most 711 00:30:50,659 --> 00:30:48,809 well-known UFO incident that we can 712 00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:50,669 think of and I'll let you answer what 713 00:31:01,759 --> 00:30:59,039 that is Roswell here's the thing I'm 714 00:31:02,989 --> 00:31:01,769 gonna say my side of Roswell and then I 715 00:31:05,389 --> 00:31:02,999 want you to say what you think about 716 00:31:08,059 --> 00:31:05,399 Roswell in the biggest argument I have 717 00:31:11,449 --> 00:31:08,069 about Roswell that it could be something 718 00:31:14,599 --> 00:31:11,459 is I don't believe there's any way on 719 00:31:17,930 --> 00:31:14,609 earth that the Army Air Force at that 720 00:31:21,199 --> 00:31:17,940 time I believe they were handling at 721 00:31:23,449 --> 00:31:21,209 least one nuclear weapon with you know 722 00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:23,459 trained military why they would let a 723 00:31:28,210 --> 00:31:26,849 press release go out that said the US 724 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:28,220 Army Air Force has 725 00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:30,890 captured a flying disc near Roswell 726 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:33,470 that's my first point I'd like to make 727 00:31:37,419 --> 00:31:34,610 mm-hmm 728 00:31:39,789 --> 00:31:37,429 secondly I'd like to say that the Air 729 00:31:41,409 --> 00:31:39,799 Force changed their mind now I 730 00:31:44,409 --> 00:31:41,419 understand you know the weather balloon 731 00:31:48,250 --> 00:31:44,419 and then later the mogul and the mogul 732 00:31:50,770 --> 00:31:48,260 was top secret and lava but now I 733 00:31:52,690 --> 00:31:50,780 understand all this and there was people 734 00:31:54,940 --> 00:31:52,700 saying that there were beings okay 735 00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:54,950 instead of the Air Force totally denying 736 00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:57,110 that they came out with a crash dummy 737 00:32:03,039 --> 00:31:59,600 story the crash dummies were not even 738 00:32:05,740 --> 00:32:03,049 used until 1952 and this is all 739 00:32:09,610 --> 00:32:05,750 documented now a lot of people have come 740 00:32:12,460 --> 00:32:09,620 forth on deathbed confessions that they 741 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:12,470 actually witness this and which is 742 00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:16,490 admissible in court and that's basically 743 00:32:19,180 --> 00:32:17,809 all I wanted to throw at you about 744 00:32:21,659 --> 00:32:19,190 Roswell and just hear what you had to 745 00:32:24,299 --> 00:32:21,669 say about all that it is one of the 746 00:32:28,210 --> 00:32:24,309 considered one of the great American 747 00:32:31,899 --> 00:32:28,220 stories shall we say of the 20 of the 748 00:32:35,980 --> 00:32:31,909 20th century and sort of defined what 749 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:35,990 became the modern UFO movement the 750 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:37,730 culture which what I always refer to as 751 00:32:42,820 --> 00:32:40,970 a cultural movement that has a that 752 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:42,830 occurred since night since then since 753 00:32:51,399 --> 00:32:46,610 the the mid 40s 1940s boy everything you 754 00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:51,409 raised are you know our point of the 755 00:32:59,220 --> 00:32:53,870 entire longer part of the story that 756 00:33:03,430 --> 00:32:59,230 yeah all show sort of a level of 757 00:33:10,930 --> 00:33:03,440 incompetence on certain levels lack of 758 00:33:14,020 --> 00:33:10,940 coordination leaks innuendo media also 759 00:33:17,049 --> 00:33:14,030 sort of has a has a hand in this as well 760 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:17,059 as far as their description of it you're 761 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:18,770 right to say and that you know the Army 762 00:33:23,649 --> 00:33:21,650 or whoever was in whichever military 763 00:33:26,409 --> 00:33:23,659 service was in short of in charge of it 764 00:33:30,220 --> 00:33:26,419 at the time if they allowed certain 765 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:30,230 things to get printed in in the press 766 00:33:34,570 --> 00:33:32,450 you know that they probably they clearly 767 00:33:38,350 --> 00:33:34,580 wanted to backtrack on or never meant to 768 00:33:40,779 --> 00:33:38,360 leak out there yeah all these things did 769 00:33:41,860 --> 00:33:40,789 happen I don't know about the crash test 770 00:33:44,620 --> 00:33:41,870 dummy as far 771 00:33:48,940 --> 00:33:44,630 you know I know that like you said what 772 00:33:52,450 --> 00:33:48,950 was it 1952 is when they sort you yeah 773 00:33:54,130 --> 00:33:52,460 yeah but I mean is it is it at all 774 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:54,140 possible and I I don't know that much 775 00:33:58,810 --> 00:33:56,090 about the dummy part of the story is 776 00:34:01,690 --> 00:33:58,820 that they may have had something else 777 00:34:04,450 --> 00:34:01,700 before something was actually officially 778 00:34:07,660 --> 00:34:04,460 designated as sort of a crash dummy as 779 00:34:10,629 --> 00:34:07,670 you know scarecrow or something else 780 00:34:14,379 --> 00:34:10,639 right that that had no perhaps official 781 00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:14,389 designation but was a precursor to the 782 00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:17,210 to what we know as the crash dummy it 783 00:34:21,220 --> 00:34:19,250 perhaps it was it was something it was 784 00:34:23,290 --> 00:34:21,230 something along those lines now that 785 00:34:25,240 --> 00:34:23,300 speculation on my part I have to have to 786 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:25,250 point out and just thinking aloud as to 787 00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:27,530 what what other possible things that 788 00:34:35,260 --> 00:34:31,760 could be and you know people's as far as 789 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:35,270 deathbed confessions and people you know 790 00:34:39,850 --> 00:34:37,850 speaking once they sort of felt they 791 00:34:43,619 --> 00:34:39,860 were disconnected enough from the events 792 00:34:48,399 --> 00:34:43,629 at the time we have lots of evidence 793 00:34:50,860 --> 00:34:48,409 from other instances in history in which 794 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:50,870 people's recollections of things turn 795 00:34:56,619 --> 00:34:54,050 out not to be sometimes even close to 796 00:34:58,900 --> 00:34:56,629 what actually occurred and an example 797 00:35:00,520 --> 00:34:58,910 I'll use is the JFK assassination which 798 00:35:03,220 --> 00:35:00,530 was really also one of the most seminal 799 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:03,230 moments and unfortunate moments of the 800 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:07,610 20th century and Gerald Posner who we've 801 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:09,410 interviewed on our show before and who 802 00:35:15,460 --> 00:35:12,050 has written a book called case closed 803 00:35:19,020 --> 00:35:15,470 and he made back in the nineteen mid 804 00:35:22,510 --> 00:35:19,030 1990s and he sort of made the argument 805 00:35:25,540 --> 00:35:22,520 or helped solidify the argument that the 806 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:25,550 assassination of JFK was done by yes a 807 00:35:29,590 --> 00:35:28,010 lone shooter he backed it up with a lot 808 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:29,600 of hard evidence a lot of scientific 809 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:32,450 evaluation a lot of testing and research 810 00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:34,730 was done and those were the conclusion 811 00:35:39,340 --> 00:35:36,800 that that's what he was left with once 812 00:35:41,340 --> 00:35:39,350 he did his once he did his multiple many 813 00:35:44,170 --> 00:35:41,350 many years of research into the topic 814 00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:44,180 all that was left all the conspiracies 815 00:35:50,530 --> 00:35:46,910 fell apart all of them now how this 816 00:35:53,050 --> 00:35:50,540 relates to Roswell is this the day of 817 00:35:55,060 --> 00:35:53,060 the assassination newscast crews were 818 00:35:55,780 --> 00:35:55,070 out and about in abundance and they were 819 00:35:58,270 --> 00:35:55,790 interviewing 820 00:36:00,790 --> 00:35:58,280 people and there is footage of people 821 00:36:04,210 --> 00:36:00,800 being interviewed dozens and dozens of 822 00:36:09,150 --> 00:36:04,220 people what they did or what somebody 823 00:36:12,550 --> 00:36:09,160 did back in this was 1963 in the 1970s 824 00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:12,560 there were reporters and other people 825 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:15,710 who went back to those eyewitnesses I 826 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:17,930 mean your eye you're there at the moment 827 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:20,810 you know you something so huge has 828 00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:23,690 happened right that it's it's you know 829 00:36:27,370 --> 00:36:25,730 consider it's one of the touchstones of 830 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:27,380 American history you were there of 831 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:29,570 course you're gonna remember everything 832 00:36:33,610 --> 00:36:31,970 about that because that is burned into 833 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:33,620 your brain there's no way you could 834 00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:35,450 possibly get it wrong well guess what 835 00:36:38,860 --> 00:36:37,280 ten years later they go back and they 836 00:36:41,170 --> 00:36:38,870 interview these people and they ask them 837 00:36:43,330 --> 00:36:41,180 to recount for them their thoughts and 838 00:36:46,540 --> 00:36:43,340 their remembrance and their memories of 839 00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:46,550 the day and the details and a lot of 840 00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:49,910 them a lot of them got it absolutely 841 00:36:56,050 --> 00:36:52,520 wrong they couldn't remember ten years 842 00:36:59,590 --> 00:36:56,060 later what they had told reporters at 843 00:37:01,480 --> 00:36:59,600 the time in 1963 their stories had 844 00:37:03,070 --> 00:37:01,490 changed entirely and that was one of the 845 00:37:05,380 --> 00:37:03,080 most seminal moments and only over a 846 00:37:08,050 --> 00:37:05,390 10-year period so you take that you 847 00:37:10,180 --> 00:37:08,060 can't Rast it to the folks who you know 848 00:37:12,910 --> 00:37:10,190 we're working on project moguler or at 849 00:37:14,350 --> 00:37:12,920 area 51 you know at the time and they 850 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:14,360 were under hush-hush secrecy you know 851 00:37:18,460 --> 00:37:15,650 and it was all of you know a very very 852 00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:18,470 you know for time Cold War tensions were 853 00:37:24,850 --> 00:37:21,440 starting to rise and all of this nuclear 854 00:37:27,550 --> 00:37:24,860 arms race atomic age all of that even 855 00:37:29,530 --> 00:37:27,560 these folks are 40 years later removed 856 00:37:32,410 --> 00:37:29,540 from that 30 or 40 years later on their 857 00:37:35,350 --> 00:37:32,420 deathbed confessions I mean I don't 858 00:37:37,180 --> 00:37:35,360 think I can't say how reliable what 859 00:37:40,210 --> 00:37:37,190 those people are saying is going to be 860 00:37:42,250 --> 00:37:40,220 30 years after the fact of kind of some 861 00:37:45,130 --> 00:37:42,260 things they may or may not have saw in 862 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:45,140 the buildings that the at the time you 863 00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:47,570 know what we Roswell today like I had 864 00:37:54,850 --> 00:37:50,510 mentioned earlier has this cultural is 865 00:37:57,070 --> 00:37:54,860 culturally saturated in in certainly 866 00:37:59,170 --> 00:37:57,080 American culture and arguably cultures 867 00:38:03,880 --> 00:37:59,180 of the world with UFO phenomenon being 868 00:38:07,089 --> 00:38:03,890 what it is and it took a long it took 869 00:38:10,809 --> 00:38:07,099 time for that sort of to become that way 870 00:38:13,359 --> 00:38:10,819 and as the myths of Roswell sort of have 871 00:38:16,059 --> 00:38:13,369 grown and grown and grown we haven't 872 00:38:18,519 --> 00:38:16,069 really it there's there's a wonderment 873 00:38:21,130 --> 00:38:18,529 to it all a fascination of this of the 874 00:38:22,839 --> 00:38:21,140 whole story in which we want to be we 875 00:38:24,789 --> 00:38:22,849 really want there to have been ships we 876 00:38:28,059 --> 00:38:24,799 really want there to have been bodies we 877 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:28,069 wanted it to be more than just weather 878 00:38:31,870 --> 00:38:29,210 balloon you know duh 879 00:38:34,450 --> 00:38:31,880 satellites I'm sorry balloons you know 880 00:38:36,969 --> 00:38:34,460 carrying top-secret equipment at the 881 00:38:41,079 --> 00:38:36,979 time for weather evaluation and and and 882 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:41,089 so forth that I that I'm not surprised 883 00:38:45,789 --> 00:38:43,249 the 30 or 40 years later these people 884 00:38:47,769 --> 00:38:45,799 who have been able to sort of become 885 00:38:50,559 --> 00:38:47,779 part of the saturated culture of what 886 00:38:52,660 --> 00:38:50,569 the UFO phenomenon is are going back and 887 00:38:54,609 --> 00:38:52,670 then in that mode sort of saying well 888 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:54,619 yeah you know there were bodies there 889 00:38:58,059 --> 00:38:56,450 and you know I wasn't supposed to talk 890 00:39:00,670 --> 00:38:58,069 about it at the time but I'm free to do 891 00:39:05,469 --> 00:39:00,680 so now and here are my recollections um 892 00:39:08,799 --> 00:39:05,479 I have a hard time taking that as any 893 00:39:10,690 --> 00:39:08,809 kind of real reliable evidence so those 894 00:39:13,870 --> 00:39:10,700 are my general thoughts about about 895 00:39:16,329 --> 00:39:13,880 Roswell just getting back to the the 896 00:39:19,089 --> 00:39:16,339 first question or the first point I made 897 00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:19,099 why would you suppose the Army Air Force 898 00:39:25,779 --> 00:39:21,680 would call would say that they captured 899 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:25,789 a flying disc for lack of perhaps away a 900 00:39:32,489 --> 00:39:29,210 better way of describing it the disc and 901 00:39:35,140 --> 00:39:32,499 the Kenneth Arnold incident in which 902 00:39:37,749 --> 00:39:35,150 newspapers had recently described what 903 00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:37,759 was a flying saucer in the in the 904 00:39:43,299 --> 00:39:40,640 Pacific Northwest part of the of the 905 00:39:45,279 --> 00:39:43,309 country so I I couldn't say as to what 906 00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:45,289 their mindset was at the time and why 907 00:39:49,630 --> 00:39:47,119 they did it I think may perhaps just for 908 00:39:53,799 --> 00:39:49,640 lack of a better deter term or a better 909 00:39:55,930 --> 00:39:53,809 descriptor at the time and it was most 910 00:39:59,410 --> 00:39:55,940 likely something that was it seemed very 911 00:40:01,690 --> 00:39:59,420 innocuous at the time and you know you 912 00:40:04,209 --> 00:40:01,700 say things and you don't realize later 913 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:04,219 what kind of impact it has once it goes 914 00:40:11,739 --> 00:40:07,249 out over once the media has a chance to 915 00:40:13,870 --> 00:40:11,749 amplify it and sort of you know hype it 916 00:40:16,299 --> 00:40:13,880 in a certain way that makes it sound 917 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:16,309 perhaps a lot more fantastic than they 918 00:40:21,490 --> 00:40:19,249 ever initially intended it to be I'm 919 00:40:23,530 --> 00:40:21,500 sure that they wanted to down 920 00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:23,540 as much as they possibly could because 921 00:40:27,490 --> 00:40:25,280 in the nature of the time the business 922 00:40:29,140 --> 00:40:27,500 they were doing and it's it just got 923 00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:29,150 away from them the genie sort of escaped 924 00:40:36,250 --> 00:40:33,920 the bottle at that moment I have some 925 00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:36,260 listener questions and I'll start right 926 00:40:40,570 --> 00:40:38,000 off the bat what are your thoughts on 927 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:40,580 the ridicule factor associated with the 928 00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:43,370 UFO phenomenon in relation to the mass 929 00:40:47,860 --> 00:40:46,160 media coverage that's an interesting 930 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:47,870 question it's an interesting way of 931 00:40:55,660 --> 00:40:51,290 seeing it I suppose from the view of 932 00:40:58,330 --> 00:40:55,670 someone who who does believe that these 933 00:41:01,260 --> 00:40:58,340 unidentified objects are in fact you 934 00:41:04,510 --> 00:41:01,270 know of an alien extraterrestrial nature 935 00:41:07,870 --> 00:41:04,520 would see it that the media takes the 936 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:07,880 position that they are ridiculing them 937 00:41:14,850 --> 00:41:12,050 for their beliefs whereas I think those 938 00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:14,860 of us on the skeptical side of this coin 939 00:41:23,890 --> 00:41:19,310 see it as the media is complicit in the 940 00:41:28,630 --> 00:41:23,900 perpetuation of of the of the belief in 941 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:28,640 in extraterrestrial existence so I agree 942 00:41:34,990 --> 00:41:31,610 with some cases certainly yeah I've also 943 00:41:37,540 --> 00:41:35,000 seen the media ridicule say there's two 944 00:41:39,130 --> 00:41:37,550 reporters talking among themselves you 945 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:39,140 know about it and how ridiculous it is 946 00:41:43,140 --> 00:41:41,090 I've seen that as well and sure I think 947 00:41:45,460 --> 00:41:43,150 that may be kind of what the the 948 00:41:50,020 --> 00:41:45,470 listener is trying to ask but I'm not 949 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:50,030 well I look on a certain level it's 950 00:41:59,740 --> 00:41:50,890 unprofessional 951 00:42:03,280 --> 00:41:59,750 in my opinion it's also it I don't to 952 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:03,290 what to what end - to what its what end 953 00:42:08,050 --> 00:42:05,810 do these stories the news coverage of 954 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:08,060 UFOs what sort of purpose does it does 955 00:42:12,910 --> 00:42:10,130 it serve I think that question needs to 956 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:12,920 be asked as well and if the perp if 957 00:42:18,850 --> 00:42:16,370 their purpose is to ridicule people for 958 00:42:21,250 --> 00:42:18,860 what they are just you know trying to 959 00:42:23,110 --> 00:42:21,260 make sense of the unknown well then I I 960 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:23,120 think the media is at fault there and 961 00:42:26,530 --> 00:42:24,650 they really shouldn't be doing that that 962 00:42:28,990 --> 00:42:26,540 is not their job that's not journalism 963 00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:29,000 that's not research that's not 964 00:42:34,420 --> 00:42:31,250 investigation so I don't think it really 965 00:42:38,670 --> 00:42:34,430 has any place in journalism 966 00:42:43,210 --> 00:42:38,680 now I must say that we ourselves who are 967 00:42:46,779 --> 00:42:43,220 arguably a form of media in our own 968 00:42:48,849 --> 00:42:46,789 right and we have been known to be you 969 00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:48,859 know light-hearted and you know 970 00:42:54,250 --> 00:42:50,720 sometimes ridiculing when it when it 971 00:42:56,859 --> 00:42:54,260 comes to certain things that people have 972 00:43:00,970 --> 00:42:56,869 claimed david icke am i pronouncing his 973 00:43:03,519 --> 00:43:00,980 last name right david fake yeah and his 974 00:43:07,529 --> 00:43:03,529 some of the things that he has brought 975 00:43:12,339 --> 00:43:07,539 forth I mean look and I'll quote another 976 00:43:15,460 --> 00:43:12,349 skeptic of some note James the ma the 977 00:43:17,049 --> 00:43:15,470 amazing James Randi who is a 978 00:43:20,019 --> 00:43:17,059 professional magician and also a 979 00:43:24,250 --> 00:43:20,029 professional skeptic and debunker of 980 00:43:28,690 --> 00:43:24,260 many frauds and scams and con artists 981 00:43:33,279 --> 00:43:28,700 out there he once said that some notions 982 00:43:36,990 --> 00:43:33,289 are just too childish to merit kindness 983 00:43:42,430 --> 00:43:37,000 and I agree with him to a certain degree 984 00:43:46,630 --> 00:43:42,440 in that when you have such extreme cases 985 00:43:50,109 --> 00:43:46,640 of lack of evidence and it just really 986 00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:50,119 Fant fantasy prone personalities if I 987 00:43:55,299 --> 00:43:52,250 might if I might say that David Icke I 988 00:43:58,930 --> 00:43:55,309 think falls under I mean really how 989 00:44:01,410 --> 00:43:58,940 serious do you expect people to take the 990 00:44:04,900 --> 00:44:01,420 likes of David Icke and some of the 991 00:44:08,529 --> 00:44:04,910 incredible stories and claims that he is 992 00:44:11,470 --> 00:44:08,539 pushed out there on people and you know 993 00:44:13,390 --> 00:44:11,480 I think that the the heavier you're 994 00:44:15,339 --> 00:44:13,400 gonna lay on this lay on that kind of 995 00:44:17,170 --> 00:44:15,349 sauce on people yeah you deserve some 996 00:44:20,260 --> 00:44:17,180 ridicule I think and you deserve some 997 00:44:22,990 --> 00:44:20,270 really sharp critique for that sort of 998 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:23,000 what I would consider irresponsible 999 00:44:27,130 --> 00:44:24,890 behavior so like everything else it 1000 00:44:31,029 --> 00:44:27,140 falls on a spectrum but in a general 1001 00:44:32,799 --> 00:44:31,039 sense the journalism the media needs to 1002 00:44:34,990 --> 00:44:32,809 do a better job of restraining 1003 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:35,000 themselves from that sort of behavior it 1004 00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:37,450 just it just doesn't serve any purpose 1005 00:44:43,599 --> 00:44:41,089 okay I agree basically you know I think 1006 00:44:46,690 --> 00:44:43,609 the bottom line is there are fringe 1007 00:44:47,779 --> 00:44:46,700 people out there and when it comes to 1008 00:44:50,479 --> 00:44:47,789 UFOs 1009 00:44:52,189 --> 00:44:50,489 and but there's also people like me that 1010 00:44:55,989 --> 00:44:52,199 are just looking for an answer 1011 00:44:58,509 --> 00:44:55,999 mm-hmm yes oh absolutely absolutely and 1012 00:45:04,629 --> 00:44:58,519 that's an important distinction I think 1013 00:45:07,519 --> 00:45:04,639 and we we do try hard not to ridicule 1014 00:45:09,169 --> 00:45:07,529 individuals for their individual beliefs 1015 00:45:11,149 --> 00:45:09,179 and we feel very strong we've always 1016 00:45:13,189 --> 00:45:11,159 felt this way even before the podcast 1017 00:45:14,749 --> 00:45:13,199 sort of when we got together and decided 1018 00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:14,759 to make a local skeptics group is that 1019 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:16,049 this is one of our one of our main 1020 00:45:20,689 --> 00:45:17,729 points was going to be where we're not 1021 00:45:22,429 --> 00:45:20,699 gonna put people down individually for 1022 00:45:24,439 --> 00:45:22,439 the things that they believe whether it 1023 00:45:27,789 --> 00:45:24,449 comes to religious beliefs pseudo 1024 00:45:31,339 --> 00:45:27,799 scientific beliefs and so forth because 1025 00:45:33,499 --> 00:45:31,349 you yeah it serves it serves no purpose 1026 00:45:36,349 --> 00:45:33,509 to do so if what we're trying to do is 1027 00:45:38,509 --> 00:45:36,359 really make people aware that there are 1028 00:45:40,759 --> 00:45:38,519 different ways of looking at things in 1029 00:45:42,529 --> 00:45:40,769 the universe and helping people come to 1030 00:45:44,629 --> 00:45:42,539 perhaps some different conclusions than 1031 00:45:46,459 --> 00:45:44,639 what they're predisposed to you're not 1032 00:45:49,069 --> 00:45:46,469 gonna be able to do that if at the same 1033 00:45:50,629 --> 00:45:49,079 time you're going yeah that person 1034 00:45:52,909 --> 00:45:50,639 thinks that that's an alien boy how 1035 00:45:54,889 --> 00:45:52,919 stupid is he yeah he's really dumb he's 1036 00:45:57,439 --> 00:45:54,899 not using his brain that gets you 1037 00:45:59,599 --> 00:45:57,449 absolutely nowhere in my opinion you 1038 00:46:01,039 --> 00:45:59,609 can't you really cannot have that kind 1039 00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:01,049 of attitude when it when it when it 1040 00:46:05,299 --> 00:46:02,880 comes to this and it you know frankly it 1041 00:46:06,829 --> 00:46:05,309 makes yourself if I were to adopt an 1042 00:46:09,289 --> 00:46:06,839 attitude like that you know it would 1043 00:46:11,959 --> 00:46:09,299 make a lot of the things I lot of my 1044 00:46:13,729 --> 00:46:11,969 opinions I think less valid in us in a 1045 00:46:15,289 --> 00:46:13,739 certain sense those sort of ad hominem 1046 00:46:19,309 --> 00:46:15,299 attacks they they really don't have a 1047 00:46:21,499 --> 00:46:19,319 place we try to be very selective as to 1048 00:46:25,339 --> 00:46:21,509 the tight as to when we do sort of go 1049 00:46:27,979 --> 00:46:25,349 off on certain people for just being so 1050 00:46:31,519 --> 00:46:27,989 out there and especially when they're 1051 00:46:33,259 --> 00:46:31,529 trying to do it in a sane it's one thing 1052 00:46:35,269 --> 00:46:33,269 for an individual to have a belief in 1053 00:46:37,189 --> 00:46:35,279 something and try to search for some 1054 00:46:39,289 --> 00:46:37,199 answers and that's very very 1055 00:46:41,599 --> 00:46:39,299 understandable it's another thing when 1056 00:46:43,429 --> 00:46:41,609 someone comes up with things that are so 1057 00:46:45,919 --> 00:46:43,439 ridiculous and they are trying to 1058 00:46:48,589 --> 00:46:45,929 absolutely push that belief with 1059 00:46:51,019 --> 00:46:48,599 absolutely no evidence or no logic or 1060 00:46:52,609 --> 00:46:51,029 nothing going for them and trying to 1061 00:46:55,129 --> 00:46:52,619 sort of manipulate people who are 1062 00:46:56,689 --> 00:46:55,139 looking for some legitimate answers to 1063 00:46:58,909 --> 00:46:56,699 thing and trying to bring them into 1064 00:47:01,309 --> 00:46:58,919 their way of thinking you know by 1065 00:47:03,319 --> 00:47:01,319 pedaling a bunch of crap on them 1066 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:03,329 and those people deserve some more harsh 1067 00:47:06,829 --> 00:47:05,249 treatment it sounds like most religions 1068 00:47:09,529 --> 00:47:06,839 but I'm not going to get into that we 1069 00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:09,539 won't go there okay here's the next 1070 00:47:13,189 --> 00:47:10,049 question 1071 00:47:15,349 --> 00:47:13,199 is there any case and or phenomenon that 1072 00:47:17,150 --> 00:47:15,359 you find the most interesting and one 1073 00:47:19,759 --> 00:47:17,160 that has challenged your skeptical 1074 00:47:21,789 --> 00:47:19,769 approach oh that's a really really good 1075 00:47:24,589 --> 00:47:21,799 question 1076 00:47:27,939 --> 00:47:24,599 I'll tell you this I'll answer this as 1077 00:47:34,339 --> 00:47:27,949 best as I can I was not always a skeptic 1078 00:47:37,969 --> 00:47:34,349 I was always a great admirer of science 1079 00:47:40,549 --> 00:47:37,979 a great admirer of science fiction and a 1080 00:47:43,819 --> 00:47:40,559 great admirer of what is otherwise 1081 00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:43,829 classified as pseudoscience I thought 1082 00:47:50,660 --> 00:47:46,529 for the first 26 years of my life why 1083 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:50,670 not why you know there's no I can't see 1084 00:47:54,529 --> 00:47:52,410 any reason why there couldn't be ghostly 1085 00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:54,539 activity and old haunted houses I 1086 00:47:58,759 --> 00:47:56,160 couldn't see any reason why there 1087 00:48:02,959 --> 00:47:58,769 couldn't be UFOs in the sky I couldn't 1088 00:48:04,670 --> 00:48:02,969 find any reason why it's us psychics 1089 00:48:07,519 --> 00:48:04,680 abilities to talk to the deceased 1090 00:48:09,499 --> 00:48:07,529 couldn't possibly happen all that all of 1091 00:48:11,839 --> 00:48:09,509 it was fair game you know at the same 1092 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:11,849 time I never abandoned my understanding 1093 00:48:15,579 --> 00:48:13,890 of science and I was like I said I still 1094 00:48:18,319 --> 00:48:15,589 had a great affinity for it and 1095 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:18,329 understood how it worked and but I 1096 00:48:22,209 --> 00:48:19,890 thought I could have it all you know in 1097 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:22,219 a sense have it all and so I sort of 1098 00:48:27,799 --> 00:48:24,690 stumbled upon skepticism through some of 1099 00:48:30,650 --> 00:48:27,809 my friends and I had to sort of take a 1100 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:30,660 good hard look at to one by one at a lot 1101 00:48:35,029 --> 00:48:32,249 of the things I had thought in the past 1102 00:48:36,890 --> 00:48:35,039 and you know I applied some skepticism 1103 00:48:41,049 --> 00:48:36,900 to it and it turns out they just sort of 1104 00:48:43,489 --> 00:48:41,059 fell by the wayside for me in with and I 1105 00:48:44,839 --> 00:48:43,499 this may be disconcerting to some of 1106 00:48:49,339 --> 00:48:44,849 your listeners or just heartening in a 1107 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:49,349 certain sense but after a while I wasn't 1108 00:48:55,069 --> 00:48:52,249 left with anything left as far as a 1109 00:48:58,039 --> 00:48:55,079 paranormal belief left that I could 1110 00:49:01,219 --> 00:48:58,049 really hold on to as being as being 1111 00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:01,229 possible I eventually sort of shed it 1112 00:49:05,900 --> 00:49:02,880 all and left it and left it all behind 1113 00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:05,910 and sort of realized for myself exactly 1114 00:49:13,699 --> 00:49:10,650 what it was so as of today I've got I've 1115 00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:13,709 got nothing as far as far as being able 1116 00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:14,880 to say 1117 00:49:19,700 --> 00:49:17,609 that you know well I'm skeptical about 1118 00:49:22,490 --> 00:49:19,710 just about everything you know but this 1119 00:49:24,589 --> 00:49:22,500 one thing I just you know I can't be 1120 00:49:26,660 --> 00:49:24,599 entirely skeptical of it or I'm really 1121 00:49:29,329 --> 00:49:26,670 you know in some way clinging on to it 1122 00:49:32,559 --> 00:49:29,339 I've really sort of shed at all yeah 1123 00:49:35,930 --> 00:49:32,569 that's just me that's a fair answer 1124 00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:35,940 number three what are your thoughts when 1125 00:49:41,029 --> 00:49:38,400 mass sightings occur such as Phoenix 1126 00:49:47,720 --> 00:49:41,039 likes Rendlesham forest Hudson Valley 1127 00:49:49,309 --> 00:49:47,730 sightings etc yeah we did I'll throw in 1128 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:49,319 something though here a little different 1129 00:49:56,450 --> 00:49:53,130 that we didn't cover and it's the the 1130 00:49:58,279 --> 00:49:56,460 Hudson lights are we talking 1985-1986 I 1131 00:50:01,039 --> 00:49:58,289 think 1986 okay 1132 00:50:04,819 --> 00:50:01,049 oh maybe right I think it was actually I 1133 00:50:07,069 --> 00:50:04,829 think it was repeated I believe there 1134 00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:07,079 may have been copycats out there sort of 1135 00:50:11,299 --> 00:50:09,359 doing what has happened and I really 1136 00:50:13,730 --> 00:50:11,309 wish I really wish I kept a diary at the 1137 00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:13,740 time because and this is funny because 1138 00:50:18,019 --> 00:50:16,319 before I knew the novellas the other 1139 00:50:21,019 --> 00:50:18,029 folks I do the skeptics guide to the 1140 00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:21,029 universe with this was really seven 1141 00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:25,049 years before I had met them we each in 1142 00:50:29,420 --> 00:50:26,730 our part different parts of the state 1143 00:50:32,059 --> 00:50:29,430 one night saw the exact same thing in 1144 00:50:35,809 --> 00:50:32,069 the sky in which it was a perfect sort 1145 00:50:37,730 --> 00:50:35,819 of formation of lights that were just 1146 00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:37,740 you know going about their own business 1147 00:50:42,170 --> 00:50:40,559 and in the sky and it was too perfect a 1148 00:50:44,299 --> 00:50:42,180 formation now I'm not sure if these are 1149 00:50:46,609 --> 00:50:44,309 the actual Hudson ones or something that 1150 00:50:49,220 --> 00:50:46,619 happened similar just around that same 1151 00:50:50,990 --> 00:50:49,230 time and some folks were trying to do it 1152 00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:51,000 sort of as a copycat based on the news 1153 00:50:54,829 --> 00:50:52,470 reports of the Hudson lights like I 1154 00:50:58,089 --> 00:50:54,839 can't exact I can't recall exactly but 1155 00:51:01,309 --> 00:50:58,099 in any case we both each in our own 1156 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:01,319 remembers seeing it that night and each 1157 00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:06,930 of us were were dumbfounded we didn't 1158 00:51:11,900 --> 00:51:10,319 know what the heck was going on went for 1159 00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:11,910 a long time we didn't figure it out 1160 00:51:21,049 --> 00:51:18,480 until some people basically can confess 1161 00:51:22,759 --> 00:51:21,059 that they were part of it you know a 1162 00:51:25,069 --> 00:51:22,769 formation of certain kinds of planes 1163 00:51:26,749 --> 00:51:25,079 that you know ran their lights in a 1164 00:51:28,009 --> 00:51:26,759 certain line themselves in a certain 1165 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:28,019 pattern so that their lights would 1166 00:51:31,609 --> 00:51:28,650 appear to be 1167 00:51:33,079 --> 00:51:31,619 something that was perhaps maybe larger 1168 00:51:34,490 --> 00:51:33,089 than it actually seems and they flew in 1169 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:34,500 that perfect formation 1170 00:51:42,799 --> 00:51:40,170 so amass sightings yeah those are what 1171 00:51:44,690 --> 00:51:42,809 you know how can so many eyes be wrong 1172 00:51:47,089 --> 00:51:44,700 right so many people saw these things 1173 00:51:51,049 --> 00:51:47,099 how could how could all those people be 1174 00:51:54,589 --> 00:51:51,059 wrong well you know what in cases a lot 1175 00:51:56,870 --> 00:51:54,599 of people can be wrong and misinterpret 1176 00:51:59,240 --> 00:51:56,880 the same thing and again they're just 1177 00:52:01,910 --> 00:51:59,250 trying to make order out of chaos that's 1178 00:52:04,430 --> 00:52:01,920 how our brains work it's an evolutionary 1179 00:52:06,529 --> 00:52:04,440 trait it's an evolutionary advantage of 1180 00:52:09,650 --> 00:52:06,539 our species that helped keep us alive 1181 00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:09,660 when we were you know just billion years 1182 00:52:14,180 --> 00:52:12,240 ago on the sub-sahara and wondering if 1183 00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:14,190 the rattling in the bushes was you know 1184 00:52:18,380 --> 00:52:16,079 a flock of birds or a lion getting ready 1185 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:18,390 to kind of jump out and and eat us and 1186 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:20,010 we sort of had to fill in the blank for 1187 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:22,410 our own survival and and sort of run 1188 00:52:26,390 --> 00:52:24,690 away from those noises as a rough 1189 00:52:32,029 --> 00:52:26,400 example of kind of what I'm getting at 1190 00:52:34,510 --> 00:52:32,039 here and I mass sightings yeah those are 1191 00:52:37,819 --> 00:52:34,520 those are tough to convince people that 1192 00:52:42,589 --> 00:52:37,829 that you know something something you 1193 00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:42,599 know may not be as grand or fantastic as 1194 00:52:46,279 --> 00:52:44,640 perhaps they saw because hey they saw it 1195 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:46,289 with their own eyes and my cousin saw it 1196 00:52:50,569 --> 00:52:48,690 with his own eyes and my dad saw it with 1197 00:52:53,029 --> 00:52:50,579 his own eyes how could so many people be 1198 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:53,039 wrong well you know people can be wrong 1199 00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:55,770 in math in masses okay so just for the 1200 00:52:57,620 --> 00:52:57,119 record I heard you say that you saw a 1201 00:53:01,130 --> 00:52:57,630 UFO 1202 00:53:05,180 --> 00:53:01,140 okay next yes I could not identify those 1203 00:53:07,339 --> 00:53:05,190 flying objects for the life of me okay 1204 00:53:09,380 --> 00:53:07,349 now this is a long question a lot of 1205 00:53:11,089 --> 00:53:09,390 people interested in UFOs focus on 1206 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:11,099 trying to discover what's behind the 1207 00:53:16,220 --> 00:53:14,490 mystery but skeptics seem to be focused 1208 00:53:18,380 --> 00:53:16,230 on demeaning people's efforts and 1209 00:53:20,750 --> 00:53:18,390 beliefs why would someone put their 1210 00:53:22,339 --> 00:53:20,760 energy into that without first doing the 1211 00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:22,349 legwork to see if there might actually 1212 00:53:28,279 --> 00:53:25,680 be truth to the phenomenon it's as much 1213 00:53:28,789 --> 00:53:28,289 a matter of belief to them as anyone 1214 00:53:30,859 --> 00:53:28,799 else 1215 00:53:33,170 --> 00:53:30,869 well we touched about on this a little 1216 00:53:35,779 --> 00:53:33,180 bit earlier demeaning yes you know 1217 00:53:39,970 --> 00:53:35,789 skeptics should not you should you know 1218 00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:39,980 not be demeaning in the in their 1219 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:42,720 criticism 1220 00:53:50,390 --> 00:53:47,970 of the evidence or claims put forth by 1221 00:53:52,190 --> 00:53:50,400 the proponents of you know alien 1222 00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:52,200 visitations and UFOs and these sorts of 1223 00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:57,450 things so but - you can't really paint a 1224 00:54:02,120 --> 00:53:59,280 broad stroke with that brush you can't 1225 00:54:03,530 --> 00:54:02,130 call all skeptics demeaning you know 1226 00:54:05,330 --> 00:54:03,540 some of us are very conscious about 1227 00:54:07,940 --> 00:54:05,340 about that now there are others yeah 1228 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:07,950 there are other jerks out there you know 1229 00:54:13,099 --> 00:54:09,810 they claim to be skeptics or they have 1230 00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:13,109 called skeptics when you do right yeah I 1231 00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:15,119 probably would do that you know they're 1232 00:54:18,380 --> 00:54:16,710 they're not they're they're more of a 1233 00:54:24,290 --> 00:54:18,390 what do we call that we call that an a 1234 00:54:27,950 --> 00:54:26,150 you're just being ridiculous none of 1235 00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:27,960 this is even possible why are we even 1236 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:30,180 arguing about this stuff you know just 1237 00:54:34,339 --> 00:54:32,490 you know you should just be skeptical 1238 00:54:38,270 --> 00:54:34,349 about it and just move on with things 1239 00:54:40,250 --> 00:54:38,280 and you know poopoo on you that's that's 1240 00:54:41,660 --> 00:54:40,260 not a very good approach as far as I'm 1241 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:41,670 concerned that's certainly not the 1242 00:54:45,260 --> 00:54:43,890 attitude that we've adopted at at the 1243 00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:45,270 New England skeptical society or the 1244 00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:47,280 skeptics guide to the universe the 1245 00:54:50,270 --> 00:54:48,810 second part of that question sort of had 1246 00:54:53,060 --> 00:54:50,280 to do with the legwork why don't they do 1247 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:53,070 the legwork to you know go out there and 1248 00:54:57,230 --> 00:54:55,050 actually try to figure out for 1249 00:55:00,470 --> 00:54:57,240 themselves what's going on well I'll 1250 00:55:02,690 --> 00:55:00,480 answer that by saying we do that we do 1251 00:55:05,210 --> 00:55:02,700 that we have organizations we have the 1252 00:55:07,370 --> 00:55:05,220 committee for scientific investigation 1253 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:07,380 of claims of the paranormal psychologist 1254 00:55:12,230 --> 00:55:09,450 now si si the committee for scientific 1255 00:55:14,660 --> 00:55:12,240 inquiry committee for skeptical inquiry 1256 00:55:17,030 --> 00:55:14,670 and other organizations just like that 1257 00:55:20,270 --> 00:55:17,040 they are out there they are scientists 1258 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:20,280 they are you know trained professionals 1259 00:55:24,589 --> 00:55:22,410 they are investigators they've written 1260 00:55:26,780 --> 00:55:24,599 books they've been on the investigations 1261 00:55:28,910 --> 00:55:26,790 I mean Joe Nickell if you if your 1262 00:55:31,970 --> 00:55:28,920 listeners will Google the name Joe 1263 00:55:34,130 --> 00:55:31,980 Nickell and I cke ll my gosh he is 1264 00:55:36,050 --> 00:55:34,140 prolific in the amount of writing he has 1265 00:55:38,990 --> 00:55:36,060 done and he is one of the people who's 1266 00:55:42,050 --> 00:55:39,000 been out there for four decades rolling 1267 00:55:44,390 --> 00:55:42,060 up his sleeves and actually going to the 1268 00:55:46,220 --> 00:55:44,400 haunted houses and going to the Nazca 1269 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:46,230 lines in the in the desert to 1270 00:55:51,250 --> 00:55:48,330 investigate them and going to the 1271 00:55:53,839 --> 00:55:51,260 pyramids and what claims phenomenon 1272 00:55:55,650 --> 00:55:53,849 claims are going on around the pyramids 1273 00:55:58,290 --> 00:55:55,660 and UFOs and he's 1274 00:56:00,210 --> 00:55:58,300 - and he's just one example there are 1275 00:56:03,330 --> 00:56:00,220 people out there doing that sort of 1276 00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:03,340 legwork quite a few impressive people in 1277 00:56:07,590 --> 00:56:06,970 fact debunking or is actually looking 1278 00:56:10,290 --> 00:56:07,600 into 1279 00:56:11,910 --> 00:56:10,300 oh no it's actual investigation it's you 1280 00:56:14,340 --> 00:56:11,920 know in some cases these things take 1281 00:56:16,650 --> 00:56:14,350 many years and they do and they do some 1282 00:56:19,110 --> 00:56:16,660 really really hard work they try to 1283 00:56:20,820 --> 00:56:19,120 collect as much evidence as they 1284 00:56:24,060 --> 00:56:20,830 possibly can for the claims that are 1285 00:56:26,010 --> 00:56:24,070 being that are being proposed and they 1286 00:56:31,230 --> 00:56:26,020 all fun question I'm sorry I interrupt 1287 00:56:33,090 --> 00:56:31,240 you who is funding Nicholls for instance 1288 00:56:35,220 --> 00:56:33,100 yeah no that's a good question you know 1289 00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:35,230 private donations is pretty much what 1290 00:56:43,100 --> 00:56:39,730 keeps these sceptic groups going you 1291 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:43,110 know they they organize themselves as 1292 00:56:51,180 --> 00:56:46,890 federal 501 C non-profit organizations 1293 00:56:53,700 --> 00:56:51,190 so that you know people can give you 1294 00:56:55,260 --> 00:56:53,710 know for tax deduction purposes to the 1295 00:57:00,450 --> 00:56:55,270 to these efforts the New England 1296 00:57:03,450 --> 00:57:00,460 skeptical society is a it is also a 501 1297 00:57:05,340 --> 00:57:03,460 3 see that we've organized ourselves as 1298 00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:05,350 and yeah we work you know and sometimes 1299 00:57:11,460 --> 00:57:08,290 we put our own funds out there and on 1300 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:11,470 the line and you know we we sometimes 1301 00:57:16,020 --> 00:57:13,330 have to absorb our own expenses in order 1302 00:57:17,700 --> 00:57:16,030 to do these sorts of things and there's 1303 00:57:19,110 --> 00:57:17,710 not a lot of money to it so we really 1304 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:19,120 have to be careful with with those 1305 00:57:25,860 --> 00:57:23,650 resources but that work is definitely 1306 00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:25,870 being done Phillip class I mean if you 1307 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:28,690 read any Phillip class you know books I 1308 00:57:31,980 --> 00:57:30,130 mean you know there there's a there's a 1309 00:57:33,750 --> 00:57:31,990 perfect example for your listeners if 1310 00:57:35,820 --> 00:57:33,760 they haven't read any books by Phillip 1311 00:57:37,620 --> 00:57:35,830 the class I really strongly suggest that 1312 00:57:41,010 --> 00:57:37,630 they do go out there and read any of his 1313 00:57:43,740 --> 00:57:41,020 books UFOs the the the skeptical 1314 00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:43,750 treatment of UFO investigation has been 1315 00:57:47,970 --> 00:57:45,730 you know was his sweet spot it's what 1316 00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:47,980 you know he'd be half his career sort of 1317 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:52,090 was centered around it so he's just one 1318 00:57:56,220 --> 00:57:54,610 of again many people who who have done 1319 00:57:57,720 --> 00:57:56,230 this sort of work so yes there are 1320 00:57:58,830 --> 00:57:57,730 people out there doing this legwork I 1321 00:58:00,570 --> 00:57:58,840 can feel a lot of people out there 1322 00:58:02,490 --> 00:58:00,580 cringing right now when you mention 1323 00:58:04,290 --> 00:58:02,500 Phillips name he stepped on a lot of 1324 00:58:06,300 --> 00:58:04,300 toes Evan you've been absolutely 1325 00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:06,310 fantastic you're actually a friendly 1326 00:58:08,410 --> 00:58:08,050 skeptic and I really appreciate having 1327 00:58:13,870 --> 00:58:08,420 you 1328 00:58:15,490 --> 00:58:13,880 one of us to be on the show and it 1329 00:58:17,260 --> 00:58:15,500 really it was my pleasure to represent 1330 00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:17,270 the skeptics guide to the universe and 1331 00:58:21,670 --> 00:58:19,730 if it's okay if people would like some 1332 00:58:25,150 --> 00:58:21,680 more information about our show our 1333 00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:25,160 website is the skeptics guide dot org o 1334 00:58:30,790 --> 00:58:28,400 RG give us you know check us out give us 1335 00:58:32,380 --> 00:58:30,800 a listen and you know we'd love to hear 1336 00:58:35,020 --> 00:58:32,390 everyone's feedback as far as your 1337 00:58:36,370 --> 00:58:35,030 listeners in your community as far as 1338 00:58:38,530 --> 00:58:36,380 what they think about the efforts we're 1339 00:58:40,660 --> 00:58:38,540 putting forth so I appreciate it Martyn 1340 00:58:42,790 --> 00:58:40,670 very much so that's it for our show 1341 00:58:45,370 --> 00:58:42,800 today with evan bernstein a couple of 1342 00:58:48,100 --> 00:58:45,380 quick announcements you can support our 1343 00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:48,110 show we have a PayPal donation button on 1344 00:58:52,330 --> 00:58:49,010 our sidebar 1345 00:58:54,430 --> 00:58:52,340 our website is podcast UFO calm you can 1346 00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:54,440 also support us for free by leaving a 1347 00:58:58,090 --> 00:58:57,050 review and iTunes or telling some of 1348 00:58:59,770 --> 00:58:58,100 your friends about us 1349 00:59:02,320 --> 00:58:59,780 you can follow us on Twitter or you can 1350 00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:02,330 like us on Facebook you can also contact 1351 00:59:08,620 --> 00:59:06,890 me at Martin at podcast UFO comm you can 1352 00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:08,630 leave a comment under any of our